« swinging with a fox | Main | ruby red »
disposable income and people
I get all sorts of mail from all sorts of people. Friend mail. Blog mail. Book mail. Get a bigger dick mail. Play with me, I'm at home alone and a 24-year-old housewife mail. Hate mail and love mail. Mail bitching that I dispose of friends too easily. Mail that I disposed of my husband too quickly. "I would have stayed if I were you" mail. "I went through something very similar, and I stayed to work things out because vows were taken and a child was involved. You should be ashamed of yourself." They weren't in my shoes. I haven't been in theirs. But I'll tell you this much...
When I first discovered The Wasband wasn't being 100% forthcoming, I assessed the steps I'd need to take to leave. You begin to measure things. You think in practicalities: finances, of children, of location, of where you'll live, of how you'll be displaced. And the width of those measurements seems wider in the strides you'll have to take, wider than standing still and believing it won't happen again. You think of everything you'll need to now live without, but in that tally, you forget to include the lies and the half-detective nature you'll take on as the relationship progresses. That's what you confront first. Then you slip into a rosy nostalgia phase, where you worry about the things you'll miss. The cuddling, the closeness, losing "your best friend." The way you kiss, the way he knows all those things that you don't want to have to wait for someone else to learn. It's tiresome just thinking about all the changes, all the do-overs, all the not-agains. You convince yourself that what you've had is real, and "I'm not just losing a lover; I'm losing the person to whom I told everything. My friend." And you believe he's your best friend because you've been selling it to yourself that long. But if he's capable of what he's done, he's not only not your best friend, he's a stranger. And that is what hurts most, that realization that the person you chose became someone you don't even know. And you beat the shit out of yourself for letting it happen, as if it was your burden, your obligation, and under your control. And then you question everything else, all your choices and wonder how you can ever trust... not just him, but in your own choices ever again.
And it's so much easier when it's clear cut. When he's a cheating bastard, than when it's muddled in "shouldn't"s but not in deal-breakers. It's harder to choose leaving when you can't say, for certain, that he's messed around with another body, not just a few heads. Because when sex is involved, you've learned it's gotta be a deal-breaker. But what if he's just entertaining things, playing really, a step closer to some fantasy he'll convince you he'd never planned on carrying out? And then you're reminded, quite suddenly, of pedophiles. You're certain you saw a segment on To Catch A Predator where hidden cameras confronted grown men at the doors of young boys they met on the Internet. And during their interrogation, they still claim, even standing at the front door, ringing the bell, that they wouldn't have done anything. It began as porn, seeking out child pornography, and once that stopped becoming as titillating, he entered a chat room, where he was still simply "entertaining a fantasy." Getting off, believing he was chatting with a young boy. And then a web cam was involved. And the nexts kept coming, until he found himself at the front door, insisting he wouldn't have done anything. "I will never do it again," he claims. And not but two days later, To Catch A Predator finds he's at it again. They track his IP address, and he's entered a different chat room. He's in therapy for it, he claims, but. But he got caught again and still denies it.
Those of us who allow for the width of that, make room for it in our lives, holding onto hope and believing in change, feel duped. And we sit by and let him convince us that it won't ever happen again. "You'll see. It will be so much better now. I'll be so much better." He fesses up, eventually, once you present him with enough proof. Otherwise, he'll deny it forever and a day, realizing no good can come from admitting he's done anything wrong. And you believe him, somehow you allow for his remorse and believe in it, because it's easier, for YOU, than not. It affords you time to remain where you are; it's a pass you're able to present, a neat slip of paper that enables you to stay later, longer, resisting change. Staying in a relationship where you don't trust the other person is like staying in bed when you know it's time to go to work. It's lazy. It's procrastinating. It's pushing off the inevitable.
The very first time I discovered something I shouldn't, I soon learned more lies would come buried along with it. I remember finding measurements of girls written on a slip of paper. Names beside the measurements and a phone number. It was a slip of lined paper, and it was written in blue pen, his penmanship. And I called the number. It was an escort service. I couldn't breathe. When confronted, he assured me it was a bet he'd lost. That the terms of his losing this bet were for him to get his friend Dave an escort. "I swear, you can call him right now. And you'll be the only one on the phone. I won't prompt him." And I believed him. I don't think I called his bluff because I was too worried about how I'd look to Dave. Some psycho controlling girl. And time went on, us in our comfortable lives ordering in our cheeseburger deluxes, medium rare with the fries well done. We watched our shows and made plans for our future. Vacations were planned. He bought me a ring and had it engraved, "I adore you." You know what else he adored? Lying.
I found emails. I found instant messenger conversations between him and other women, online women sometimes. And there was always an excuse for it. And people, even the girls themselves warned me, "Once a cheater always a cheater." And I refused to believe it. I still don't believe it. I believe in the power of change when we want to change badly enough. But when should you believe in their belief? Do you do it only for the sake of the children involved? Do you do it because this time is only the first time? He's shown you his character, and you're fighting to believe, to convince yourself, that he really isn't that way.
Here's what I know: if someone is capable of being deceitful, of holding onto lies, of covering things up, they're okay with it. I don't care if they don't get physical. Physical is just the result. It's all the steps leading to physical infidelity that matter. It's the emotional infidelity that matters most. And once a person is capable of behaving differently when they're alone than when they're with you, there's not only a severe problem. There's cheating going on. Doing things you wouldn't dare do in front of your partner is cheating... and no, taking a shit and farting don't count. But giving some co-worker a massage, or IMing some girl the details of your relationship, or chatting in some online room asking a chick to describe the size of her areolas. That shit is cheating. Doing anything you wouldn't feel comfortable doing in front of your partner, but doing it anyway, is cheating. It means you're capable of duplicitous behavior. And you'll do it again.
If they don't make themselves sick by their own behavior you can bet they'll repeat it. Equally as bad is the person who is sickened by their own behavior, who seeks out therapy even, and who still makes allowances for their own repetitive behavior. Like the pedophile who an hour after therapy signs onto a myspace page pretending to be a young boy himself. And sticking around in a world of "everything is okay now because we're in therapy," or "things seem so much better, closer even, now that it's all out in the open" you're almost certain to find yourself in the same compromising position again. And maybe then you'll get the fuck out of bed and to living a life where an extra income and deceitful people are disposable.
This post brought to you by Stephanie Klein, author of about at least two hundred outbound emails stating just this in response to the overwhelming emails received with subjects reading, "What should I do?" You should leave. You should force yourself to do what's hard because in the long run staying is so much more detrimental to your esteem and your own worth. Do I know you and the details that only you know? No. But I know enough, have lived enough, and have seen and heard enough to know when someone is kidding herself. You know what it looks like? A smile. She forces a smile and talks about hope and faith. And she hopes you'll believe her so she can believe it too.
July 5, 2007 in dating & mating | Permalink
Comments
BRAVO Stepahnie!! Im doing a dance around the house! WAY TO PREACH IT SISTA!!! Triple love you!
Posted by: patti | Jul 5, 2007 1:18:40 PM
I would have left, too. It's really no one's business why or how you left. What's important is that it was the best decision for YOU. And who can argue with the results?
Posted by: jennifer | Jul 5, 2007 1:46:37 PM
Excellent post Stephanie-after losing my first husband to a military accident, I faced a lot of judgement too regarding my decision to move on with my life. People couldn't believe I had the audacity to actually allow myself to-be happy, fall in love again, and get married. Actions definetely spoke louder than words, and I couldn't believe even those who were closest to me were so ignorant of what they said and did. In the end, I knew the only person truly affected by my decisions was me. It is my life and I decided to live it to the fullest. I believe this is what God put me on this earth to do. I am hopeful your readers seeking advice actually listen. Life is waaayyy to short to spend your time being unhappy. Thanks for reminding me of what I'm made of-guts and faith.
Posted by: atxchick-Kathy | Jul 5, 2007 1:47:18 PM
My boyfriend cheated on me. Not physically (that I am aware of), but emotionally, and that resulted in the end of our relationship. I only found out by reading his email. He was angry that I had read his email- he tried to make the issue about me reading his email rather than his infidelity. Trying to deflect attention away from his problem, I suppose. I guess whenever you are suspicious enough that you want to read your partner's email, maybe it is time to leave. Go with your gut feeling.
Posted by: Anne | Jul 5, 2007 2:11:22 PM
I am right there with Jennifer. Thank God nothing like this has happened to me, but I think if I was in a similar situation I would leave too- and what is most important is that it would be best for me and that's what should matter to outsiders. Great post, great voice, great that you can pass this on to other women.
Posted by: Adrienne | Jul 5, 2007 2:11:40 PM
AMEN.
Posted by: chels | Jul 5, 2007 2:23:33 PM
This is my favorite post yet - very empowering for anyone who has dealt with a liar. There are too many people who are okay with duplicitous behavior.
Posted by: Desiree | Jul 5, 2007 2:30:43 PM
The last 5 sentences of paragraph 2 are the reason I continue to read you EVERY day. Nice work Ms. Klein.
Posted by: smallstatic | Jul 5, 2007 2:30:46 PM
Amen, Amen, Amen. I have been reading your blog for a very long time and this entry touched me more than ANYTHING you have ever written. I divorced my first husband because of infidelity and as far as I'm concerned, there was no other decision to be made. I know there are millions of people out there who deal with this everyday, but our common experience is what got me reading your blog. I found your book to be a comfort (not to mention hilarious and entertaining).
The thing that saved me was having the ability to look into the future and see the same thing happening over and over again....and it just being harder to leave the longer I allowed it to go on.
Posted by: Huge Fan | Jul 5, 2007 2:32:41 PM
Great post. Great, great post.
I think most people who encourage others to stay in dying/unhealthy relationships are people who hold too tightly to the "fairy-tale" ideal of relationships. Yes, ideally it would be fabulous if people in dying relationships could work together, blood sweat and tears, to fix problems, change proclivities, grow together again. Sometimes that happens. Didn't happen for me. You can only put so much work into something before it either blossoms or dies.. and if it's dead, it's time to move on. Some things will never end "happily ever after." Some things just need to end, and then you work to find what really makes you happy.
I really enjoy your blog and I enjoy your writing style. But this post really makes me admire you, Stephanie.
Posted by: Lisa | Jul 5, 2007 2:38:22 PM
You are so right! I love the way you write! MY ex boyfriend was sending emails and IMs have sexual nature to other people. People he claimed were "just friends". Not only that but he would put me down as well to other people. When I took a step back and looked at our relationship I realized how controlling he was. Thats when I moved out and on!
Posted by: Holly | Jul 5, 2007 2:38:51 PM
Friends question my decision to leave a psychotic stalker of an ex-boyfriend the same way they questioned me when I left another ex who had cheated on me............."But he loves you........how can you leave him?"
I left because I love myself more.
And those people who questioned me then and continue to question my status as a happy single person - I feel they were/are trying to justify their bad relationships by trying to keep me in one.
Leaving has never been as hard as looking at myself in the mirror after I chose to stay and "work things out".........
Posted by: Stepheney | Jul 5, 2007 2:53:42 PM
i am not sure what to think of this. do you mean you should ALWAYS leave? even if you are in the beginning stages of a relationship? not married? no children involved? early in my relationship with my current boyfriend, i would go out with my friends, make out with guys...have fun. we now live together and even though i no longer do these things...i don't think it would be the worst thing in the world if i did. we aren't married but we are headed that way. i love my boyfriend to death but i am also young and vibrant and want to have fun. i think your way of thinking is extremely conservative...to think that if you are with someone that its forever, from day one. there are ranges of emotions that people go through when they are together, its never a fairy tale (and if it seems that way, there are most likely bigger issues being shuffled into the closet). i also have a close girlfriend who cheated on her fiance as sort of a last fling before getting married...and now she is totally happy in her marriage (and her husband knows what happened). i just dont think you can say LEAVE to everyone. it sounds like good liberal, feminist advice...but life isn't black and white. i am sorry you were so hurt, but that doesn't mean that we all are as well.
Posted by: jenny | Jul 5, 2007 3:07:59 PM
Stephanie - I enjoy your writing but rarely agree with you. On this topic - I agree 100%. I hope women in your situation can listen.
Posted by: Abbie | Jul 5, 2007 3:10:28 PM
Leave--YES! For your own sanity..so you dont spend countless hours wasted looking for infidelity-- youve seen it once-- it most likely will continue and it has nothing to do with you-- its about THEM and it ALWAYS will be. You will not change that person..They dont want to change-- they enjoy this lifestyle of hiding and secrets- and deception--its thrilling for them.. it will never be that for you and they wont have that passion for you..it will all be spent on online relationships or physical relationships.. But I had to do what was best for my daughter...and even though it seems "wrong"--it allowed me to keep my sanity, my health and my child protected for her future-- More times than not-- they DO NOT and do not want to change. I support your decicion FULLY!
Posted by: 2faced | Jul 5, 2007 3:14:02 PM
I'm so glad you are standing up for yourself on this. I pity the women who have quilted you for getting far, far away from a marriage that was terribly toxic. I pity them because they don't have the guts to stand up for themselves; not enough care for themselves to say "I deserve better". You did the right thing & you should feel proud of yourself!! I think you already feel proud & comfortable with your decisions, but wanted to let you know that many women are so so proud of you too.
Posted by: Lisa | Jul 5, 2007 3:35:34 PM
First of all, Anne, I could have written your comment myself. I just left him. And like you said, he made it all about my invasion of privacy, and not about his infidelity. Cowardice. I'm better off. He is capable of duplicitous behavior, and I can't go through life fearing when the next shoe will drop.
Stephanie, as with so many of your other readers, you always ALWAYS seem to write exactly what I'm experiencing and feeling at the moment I'm facing it. I couldn't breathe when I read this entry. And then suddenly, I could breathe more deeply, and I found a renewed sense of confidence that a) I did the right thing, and b) I will be okay.
"Staying in a relationship where you don't trust the other person is like staying in bed when you know it's time to go to work. It's lazy. It's procrastinating. It's pushing off the inevitable."
If only I'd read, believed and embraced that two years ago. But hindsight is for fools. I'm here now, and I'm moving forward.
Bravo, bravo, bravo. Thank you for inspiring us.
Posted by: Kim | Jul 5, 2007 3:46:12 PM
The problem with a lot of these cases is that women do not have the confidence to leave, to stand on their own.
There's the what if's
What if I dont find someone else?
What if I am making a mistake and then it's too late to change my mind?
What if I just cant do this because Im too weak?
If women had more confidence a lot of our issues would slowly fade. But then of course you can go back in history and how the only way women could get anywhere in life was with a man, or by using her sexuality. And if your sexuality is all you have to get by and looks fade, where does that leave you?
It's too bad that instead of supporting one another most women are catty and jealous. If women were to ban together more we wouldnt need to use our sexuality nearly as much, or looks or what have you. But it all goes back to confidence.
good blog.
Posted by: Julie | Jul 5, 2007 3:49:07 PM
Stephanie,
I love this post. It feels like a long time since I have heard this voice from you and I missed it.
Posted by: J | Jul 5, 2007 3:54:49 PM
Awesome post. I truly enjoyed every word.
And to Jenny a few posts up...if you go out and make out with other guys, then you need to get yourself single and do what you have to do. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too by staying with your boyfriend and believing that it's okay to cheat. You're right, life isn't black and white...but vows, rings, and a $30,000 wedding later won't change your ability to just be with your husband. It's a mindset that comes with maturity. Either you want it or you don't. Like you said...you're young. So take your own advice and go have fun and stop playing grownup before you're really ready for it.
And a piece of advice...as you try to explain away your situation to everyone that has been burned (such as myself a couple of times before I finally wisened up) and how us "good liberal feminist[s]" don't understand where it is that you're coming from...it's really you that doesn't understand what's going on with you. Sure we don't know your exact situation, but it shouldn't be so complicated and difficult to explain. Nor should you need to reference your friends whom also cheat to prove your point. Dishonesty is dishonesty any way you cut it. So, when you feel like saying "you just don't understand"...realize that it's probably you that doesn't understand...and you ought to do yourself a favor and go out to experience the world and all that your youth has to offer.
Seriously, you make out with other guys and then call women who frown upon cheating 'liberal feminists'? Hello!!!! When did cheating become conservative???
Posted by: Jennifer | Jul 5, 2007 4:02:21 PM
I absolutely agree with the sentiment that when trust has gone out of a relationship it's time to ship out. Absolutely. But...
We are human. We make mistakes. And when you're in a relationship with someone who doesn't trust you from the beginning - someone who is jealous of every interaction you may have with a person of the opposite sex (or, you know, same sex if that happens to be the way you roll) the constant scrutiny and fear of messing it up can often drive people to conceal things they would normally be upfront about. And it goes from there...
It's really, REALLY hard to be in a relationship with someone who is jealous by nature. And sometimes that jealousy is what drives people away. Not saying that if you're a jealous person it's all your fault when your significant other cheats (not at all) but rather that when someone feels trapped in a relationship they often do things that are destructive to that relationship BECAUSE they feel trapped.
And yes. I've been there.
Posted by: sarah | Jul 5, 2007 4:15:19 PM
AMEN to the blog post and ditto for Jennifer's comment above.
Posted by: Ashley | Jul 5, 2007 4:25:37 PM
I can't speak for Stephanie, Jenny, but I'm reading a big difference between your situation and what was Stephanie's situation.
You would make out with other guys when you and your boyfriend FIRST started dating as very young people, per your words. Stephanie's ex had committed to her, exchanged vows, yet was playing deceptive mind games WHILE they were in a mature married relationship. BIG difference. The level of committment made equals the level of hurt inflicted when the committment is broken.
I'm having a hard time reading where Stephanie said, in your words Jenny, that "to think that if you are with someone that its forever, from day one." If that were true, she'd still be married to her ex, no?
To me, it's a similar issue to what Stephanie posted about swinging. Some are okay with open relationships, others aren't. Open relationships carry more potential for emotional danger than monogamous ones, and that's not worth the risk to everyone.
But now that I think about it, it's not the same at all. It's swinging versus deceiving. Very different things.
Posted by: Lisa | Jul 5, 2007 4:34:18 PM
Here Here! I agree with you totally Stephanie. I was married to a man very similar to your ex for 15 yrs and it took me that long to gain the courage to get out! I always made excuses saying its better for the kids, or he'll change, or therapy will make it all better but it just got worse. The bottom line is this: the sooner you love yourself more than you love him the better!!!! If you love yourself for the wonderful person that you are, then you will have no problem leaving the creep.
Yesterday, July 4th, was my first "independence" day since my divorce was finalized!!!!! I am so happy now and my children (3) are too.
Ps. Your book was fantastic! I couldn't put it down. Can't wait for the next!
Posted by: Sandra | Jul 5, 2007 4:39:43 PM
Though in all honesty, I thought in your book you didnt leave him? You asked if he wanted the baby, he said no and things went downhill from there, but this was after you found him cheating, right? I mean, you still gave him another chance because you were pregnant, right?
Or am I getting the time of events wrong?
FROM STEPHANIE: I made the choice to end things. It took me a while to get there, though, as it should, really. It's a big decision. Here's something I didn't include in the book:
When I first found out, I called in to the Dr. Joyce Brothers show and told her all the details about what I knew so far. She told me to stay with him, to have the baby, and for him to get to therapy. She said he was acting out, shirking responsibility. He runs and hides from it, she said. He did it when we got married, and again once I was pregnant. Peter Pan Syndrome. He said he'd do whatever it took, that he'd stop talking to this other woman... but as I soon discovered, it was all a lie. He continued to hide things, trying to save his reputation, and I realized he had no fucking character. And that I would be disgusted with myself if I stayed.
In a week small moment, the night before I went through with the abortion of our child, I called him to ask if this was really what he wanted. I didn't want to feel like the only one responsible. I needed to hear it from him, and even if I hadn't, I'd really already made up my mind. It was over. We aren't at our best when go through things like that, but we can become our best when we go through things like that.
The pregnancy and the marriage because I knew I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I stayed with him. I knew I would constantly be checking his Amex bills, his phone logs, and my back... it was no way to live.
Posted by: Julie | Jul 5, 2007 4:45:58 PM
I cheated on a boyfriend, having sex with an ex-boyfriend while we were together. I was in college. It was obviously wrong and absolutely duplicitous. And I grew up. I got it out of my system, not just the sex, the lying. The hiding.
I grew up to realize this: if I found myself wanting more, wanting different, wanting other in a relationship... it wasn't the right relationship for me. Of course there's always temptation, but if you're willing to lie and hide things, it also has to mean you're willing to risk losing the person you're with. Hoping to have your cake and eat it too is where people get into trouble. And I would not remain in a relationship if I felt the longing to kiss boys, etc. at the beginning of things. If you have that "exclusive talk" you shouldn't be making out with other people. And if you are, and feel okay chalking up to being young, then you really don't take the exclusivity or your relationship seriously.
If you're involved in an exclusive relationship, even if it's just the beginning, and you find yourself kissing other boys, you probably shouldn't be in that relationship, not necessarily because of the person, but because you're clearly not ready for it. You can't be. You're living a lie and not being authentic with yourself or others.
Posted by: StephanieKlein | Jul 5, 2007 4:46:47 PM
Agreed 100%. Once a cheater always a cheater. You made the right decision. Maybe a little late, but you did it nonetheless.
Posted by: plantation | Jul 5, 2007 4:59:14 PM
Stephanie,
Were you speaking of your current husband when describing the details of "his" infidelity or was that your previous husband?
Posted by: Doc | Jul 5, 2007 4:59:27 PM
Stephanie - thanks for this. As a strong-willed, independent-minded, and loyal woman, it's wonderful to hear someone else stand so strongly for what's right and decent. It can be so easy to slip into the cracks of wishful thinking and self-delusion. As a child and teenager, I watched my mother involve herself in several extra-martial affairs, both physical and emotional, and I've vowed to never be the kind of woman she is. I just hope I can find a man to match my convictions.
Posted by: C | Jul 5, 2007 5:18:48 PM
Jenny,
I write to you as a 24 year old girl who used the same reasons you did to justify cheating. I thought, heck, why not? I'm young, and why be committed to just one person? I thought myself too pretty to just settle for the guy I was with. I didn't want to close any doors. When I cheated, I would overcompensate with my then-boyfriend by being overly cuddly, romantic, etc. I blamed him for my cheating (internally), when it all boiled down to a low self esteem on my end and immaturity. Worst of all, I would accuse him of cheating (?) just because I felt so guilty.
But back to immaturity. I wanted everything; the boyfriend to run home to, and the excitement that comes with cheating, and kissing different lips. The adrenaline was a crazy rush. But in the end, all I was left with was a feeling of guilt and stupidity.
I once spoke to a psychologist about it, and she told me that I was covering my bases well. I could never really be fully committed in a relationship when I was being physical with someone else. Hence, I kept one foot out because I wasn't fully developed as a person. I didn't want to sacrifice myself, but I did want his sacrifice on commitment, and fidelity, etc.
I'm 24 now, still young, vibrant and married. And the benefits that come from being physically and emotionally involved in my relationship are ten fold the adrenaline that I sought in my past.
So I agree with the others, that this will come to you in time. But stop hurting yourself and your boyfriend. It isn't worth it, I promise.
Posted by: Sophia Tells | Jul 5, 2007 5:20:05 PM
So much easier said than done.
FROM STEPHANIE: I never said it was easy. It sucks the big fat hairy moose cock. But in the times where we hurt the most, we really do the most growing. Not that growth seems like the most appealing sell, but when you're going through it... and it hurts like hell, there is comfort in knowing that your soul, your journey, is progressing, that you're at least moving forward as hard as it is. And it totally prepares you for anything else thrown your way. It's a reminder... "Shit, I got through that, so I'll get through this too."
Posted by: It Starts Now | Jul 5, 2007 5:25:29 PM
okay...i admit...i also come here to read your blog and not just to look at the kids pictures :)
Nice post.
Posted by: floridagal | Jul 5, 2007 5:30:54 PM
It is hard as hell. It is questioning myself, it is being lazy, it is hoping and it is a waste.
It needs to become reminding myself that I am so much more than I feel in my current relationship.
Thank you.
Posted by: It Starts Now | Jul 5, 2007 5:42:12 PM
And actually, this speaks to the other woman as well. She cannot think much of herself if she's willing to be with a man who's involved with someone else. I know of people who've been with married men. I absolutely judged them. I couldn't make room in my life for people who didn't make room for themselves in their own lives. They weren't living fully in their own lives. They didn't/and don't have enough respect for themselves to want more from the people in their lives.
I know a woman who has been the long-term girlfriend of a married man. She says she gets what she needs from it. Her needs are met. And I say, she hasn't begun to learn how to need. She sets the bar way too low. She expects he'll leave his wife, as they all expect. The wife is prettier, successful, talented, and he's with her... which in a sick twisted way makes her feel good and worthy because she thinks so much of this wife and is honored to be considered in such good company. She sees his wanting her too as a compliment. Talk about seriously fucked up. He says the marriage is just for monetary reasons... that he cannot leave her or she'll take him for all he's worth. So they live secretly, and she settles for it. And I feel so sad for people who choose to live this kind of life. I cannot imagine if their younger versions of themselves learned of this current behavior they'd feel proud or okay with it. It's gross what we allow for in our lives due to crap self-esteem.
Posted by: StephanieKlein | Jul 5, 2007 6:02:05 PM
Again, I think it goes back to confidence and I think that has been one of our major downfalls. We live in a society where we are never satisfied with ourselves. You dont see men doing this, it's always the women.
If only I were prettier...
If only I were thinner...
Just comes down to having confidence in yourself and believing you are worth more.
I do remember that part of the book now about the phone call, but let's say he had said yes, what would you have done? Can you honestly say you wouldnt have gone back to him?
Posted by: Julie | Jul 5, 2007 6:36:32 PM
I am a loooooooooongtime reader, first time poster.
I am also a lesbian who finds a lot of truth and comfort in what you write.
This post really hit close to home. I just got out of a relationship with an alcoholic, not my first relationship with an alcoholic, and there was a definite point where I had to say, as you said, I love you, but I love me more. Thank g-d I had the clarity of mind to say, I can't go around this bend again. It always ends up in the same place.
I have to believe that the right relationship isn't one where there is constant suspicion, disappointment, excuse-making and anxiety.
Thanks for this post -- I thought it was spectacular. Now you just need to bookmark it on the side of your homepage so we can all find it when we need a kick in the pants!
Posted by: Sarah | Jul 5, 2007 6:52:14 PM
Interesting title. But I feel like this post marginalizes the person YOU chose to make disposable - the child you were carrying. I can certainly get behind the "once a cheater always a cheater" pep talk and the decision not to remain in a relationship devoid of trust, but I can't understand turning around and resorting to an abortion as part of the solution. Had you miscarried (in the context of a healthy relationship), you would have mourned the loss. But you chose to terminate the pregnancy because the baby's father was a lying jerk. If that were the test for abortion, I have a feeling there'd be a huge decline in the world's birth rate. Talk about punishing the child for the sins of the father. But it doesn't seem like the decision not to have the child increased the speed of your recovery from the break up of the marriage. What was your rationale at the time? I guess my question is what did you hope the abortion would accomplish in the bigger picture? Was it that you didn't want the child anymore or that you didn't want to be reminded of its father? I want to make clear that I'm not making any comment here on abortion in general or a woman's right to choose, which is of course, hers alone. I'm just wondering about it in this specific context where it was a longed-for baby one day and a footnote to infidelity the next. I'm not daring to presume it was an easy decision either. It's just part of the equation that I find it difficult to identify with.
FROM STEPHANIE: Perhaps you should read my book if you want a more complete answer. And I know, LB, that you have read it. It's not a cop-out answer, either. No one knows what it's like to be in those shoes until they're in them, and then they look within themselves and follow what their most authentic self tells them. I have two children now. And I still don't agree with your statement, "this post marginalizes the person YOU chose to make disposable - the child you were carrying." Because it wasn't a person yet. It wasn't a child yet. I called it baby because I knew it could have been but at that point, during my first trimester, it wasn't. Not to me. And that wasn't some justification to ease some kind of guilty feelings I ought to have felt. It's what I believe. And, I'm quite sure if I discovered one of my children, if carried full-term, would have down syndrome, I'd choose to end the pregnancy. And I wouldn't write it off as, it wasn't a baby yet if it were in the second trimester. I would know that it hurt, that it might feel something. I would. But I think I would still make that decision, but the truth is, I've learned not to say 100% what I'd do in any situation unless I've been there. Because none of us really knows until we're in it.
I was true to myself. I did not want to be tied to him, but that wasn't why I decided what I did. I wanted a family, not a baby. And yes, my husband could have died. He could have left me with a baby, not a family. But right then, as soon as I found out about the lying, as quickly as I had learned things, I had the opportunity to make a decision about the rest of my life. I had that privilege, that right. I aborted that pregnancy earlier than I'd miscarried the second time I was pregnant. Would I have been alright if I'd chosen to follow through with the pregnancy, yes. My life would be very different than it is now. I'd be very different. And I don't, not for a second, regret my decision. I don't stay up late at night wondering what my decision signifies in society. I did what my heart and soul, deep inside, knew was best for me. And that's all any of us can do, if we're lucky, be able to access that and act on it. Preaching is now officially over.
Posted by: LB | Jul 5, 2007 7:07:14 PM
thanks for the concern....but i still 100% disagree with your statements. i don't need to "grow up" or "not be in a relationship." and i also laughed about the vows, rings and $30,000 wedding comment. that is just not part of me. and i would never need any of that to prove my love for anyone.
first of all, my friends and i are all dedicated, educated, talented women...and we have all gone through the same issues. one thing that sets us apart from the women on this comment board and stephanie....or what i can i tell from these comments....is our reasons for being with a man.
and i never cheated....my boyfriend and i were never in a closed relationship...especially not 6 months into it. he knew about everything i did...and we laughed about it later. so i wasn't hurting anyone.
regardless, i don't need to defend myself to anyone. and i am CERTAINLY not lying to myself. please. i have been to therapy.
my point was that you can't make a blanket statement that says LEAVE. every relationship is different. and when i say that its sounds feminist and liberal to make that statement....its because i think there are a lot of women out there who get hurt this way and then think they are strong and liberal just because they walk away. if they hadn't fallen for the conservative notion of a relationship to begin with, they would have never been hurt. a strong woman to me is one who defines her own notion of a relationship. not what society or (gasp) GOD tells her it should be.
FROM STEPHANIE: "My boyfriend and I were never in a close relationship" pretty much says it all. If neither of you took it seriously, and you both laugh about it now, then it wasn't lying or cheating. This post is about being in a relationship where your partner is deceiving you. And there's no justification for that, especially not "feminism."
Posted by: jenny | Jul 5, 2007 7:07:46 PM
Wow. That was powerful and moving and the thing that women need to hear but just don't want to.
Posted by: tuesday | Jul 5, 2007 7:08:55 PM
Hey there Jenny,
If you were in an 'open relationship' then why worry about the 'leaving' aspect...as you obviously weren't cheating. Did you think that you were cheating because after your clarification, it seems that no one would have thought that you were...
I honestly don't understand your labels though. Why is walking away from a debilitating committed relationship liberal, but not also making out with other people while in a committed relationship? And what is your idea of a 'conservative' relationship because I don't feel that you've been clear on what exactly that means?
Furthermore, no one here is talking about the expectations of God or society regarding a relationship. Nor has anyone said that you aren't dedicated, educated and talented. No one has said anything in regards to that. What they have discussed is your written statement regarding cheating in your own relationship: "we now live together and even though i no longer do these things...i don't think it would be the worst thing in the world if i did. we aren't married but we are headed that way. i love my boyfriend to death but i am also young and vibrant and want to have fun."
Your 'but' is your problem. You're stuck on the 'but'. Until you either settle for what you have or meet someone else, that 'but' will stick with you. That 'but' allows for excuses. It allows for discretions. Just because I'd never cheat on my boyfriend now doesn't imply that I'm none of the things that you are...I'm only 27...but I don't have any 'buts' anymore that linger around my head. They've gone away because my boyfriend and I adore each other, we talk about everything, we laugh all the time...we've both been through very bad relationships and now know what we both want and expect from another person. I am young because I chose to be at heart (and by age), but I don't need it to stand between myself and my ability to commit to another person.
Posted by: Jennifer | Jul 5, 2007 8:26:12 PM
Jenny,
Agreed. I think most people that read this blog are young, educated, and talented. I don't speak for all, but I we all know for a fact that Stephanie doesn't define herself by her relationship, and the readers in this blog don't either, or aspire not too.
I think I'm one of the youngest readers, and I married young. My husband completes me in everyway. If you decide with your boyfriend soon-to-be husband that you will be in an open relationship, all the more power to you. But that doesn't make you a feminist, or a liberal, or more successful, or more "modern" than anyone here. It makes you strong for choosing something that you think suits both of you best.
And on the same note, it makes all the woman here that leave their cheating husbands or boyfriends even stronger - for not sticking to a relationship that went wrong. As SK noted, its when we go through shit that we grow most. If an open relationship and making out with boys is your cup of tea, go for it. But do applaud woman who leave relationships that went wrong, sour, and sucked. It takes a lot of courage to do that.
Posted by: Carolina | Jul 5, 2007 9:25:06 PM
So.. none of the post applies to you, Jenny. So what's the problem?
(scratching my head)
Every relationship is different. But the most crucial elements of any relationship are respect and honesty (and fabulous sex, but who's counting. ha.).
When two people have an understanding and one decides to change the rules without consulting the other, and when The Rule-Changer refuses to make the changes necessary to preserve the relationship, what exactly is left for the "screwed-over" party to stick around for? In my opinion it's not even strictly a romantic relationship thing, it's a rule of human behavior - someone repeatedly disrespects you and refuses to acknowledge it, you do what you have to do to preserve yourself.
What exactly is your idea of a relationship, Jenny? and how does it differ from "the conservative notion?" I'm not asking to be snarky at all. There's obviously disagreement here, and I'm having a hard time reading into your thoughts. Just curious.
Posted by: Lisa | Jul 5, 2007 9:28:11 PM
Hey LB, that was pretty slick, claiming you didn't have an agenda there. Having never been pregnant and never been married, I think I'd abort too, if I found out while pregnant my husband was cheating on me.
**********************************************************
My roommate was married four years, cheated on for the last three. Her good friend begged her to hire a PI, and she finally did. She was lucky enough to not have had children with her husband yet, and to have a supportive family. She divorced him.
*********************************************************
I believe that some things don't warrant second chances. Stephanie, I think the people who write to you asking what to do about cheating spouses probably do.
Posted by: Green | Jul 5, 2007 9:37:15 PM
Ya know, I have a three year old who was pretty close to being stem cell research :D
I almost chose abortion, I even had wine at Christmas thinking, "Well, it's a done deal. Im not having it"
As close as I came to that abortion I do not regret my decision at all, jesus, I cant even imagine.
But had I gone through with it Im sure I would be resolved to the fact that not having it was what was best for me.
LB, that was pretty harsh and nasty. Coming from someone on the flip side of it if I were Stephanie I'd tell you to go to hell.
Until you've been there you have NO idea how you will handle it. Oh and for the record, I was one of those who said if I got knocked up and wasnt married, I would definitely have an abortion.
Again, you just dont know what you will do, and telling a woman she has sacrificed a child for her own life is just inappropriate. You're not god. Shit like that gets on my nerves. Why do people feel this need to butt in your life tell you what you should and shouldnt do when your life has zero effect on theirs.
Posted by: Julie | Jul 5, 2007 10:04:35 PM
Crap, sorry for not making sense in my last sentence by failing to complete my thought. "Stephanie, I think the people who write to you asking what to do about cheating spouses probably do know what they should do. They just want someone else to tell them so they don't have to take responsibility for their actions."
FROM STEPHANIE: I think any time we ask for advice, we already know what we want to hear somewhere deep down, what we're hoping to hear, right? And then it's up to figure out why we want to hear what we do. Is it because it's easier and allows us to stay stagnant, resisting change? Probably. We, all of us, look to rationalize so we can live with ourselves and our choices. Sometimes though, we learn no amount of convincing feels right.
Posted by: Green | Jul 5, 2007 10:14:12 PM
Stephanie: I've been reading your blog for two years and was never tempted to comment until this entry. Thank you thank you thank you for writing it. Despite all the "oh but you shouldn't have dont that..." mail that you are bombarded with, maybe it will please you to know that once in a while, when you write about something like this and post it, and through some serendipitous act, somebody on the other side of the world will read it, who really, really, really needed to be told exactly what you said.
Posted by: Julie | Jul 5, 2007 10:50:28 PM
"And those people who questioned ... I feel they were/are trying to justify their bad relationships by trying to keep me in one."
This, Stepheney, hit the nail on the head for me. People who say "How can you leave him?" are often people who not have the strength to end their own (bad) relationships. But they don`t have the right to judge. It`s your relationship and if there`s anything you think you can`t deal with, you have to go. No matter what it is, no matter how unimportant it may seem to other people. It`s only your decision because this is your life - people have their own lifes to make the best out of it, or, if they like, the worst.
Okay, I`m done.
Posted by: simone | Jul 6, 2007 8:49:50 AM
i'd just like to say that most people bring children into this world to increase the quality of their life...to make it more enjoyable...more joyful...and if having a child is not going to accomplish that than you're defeating the purpose...i.e resenting a child, down syndrome etc
facts change and when they do you adjust your course accordingly.
Posted by: Nat tat tat alie | Jul 6, 2007 9:13:44 AM
There is no doubt that you were right to leave him - it was right for you and you knew it your heart and you shouldn't have to justify your decision to anyone. Also, it took courage and you should be commended for that. But, I just don't see how you can advise anyone who discovers dishonest behaviour from their partner to end the relationship. Every person, every partnership is so different. There are so many other potential factors that could make someone else's situation different from yours, surely? It feels like many people are saying here that anyone who doesn't leave that kind of situation is weak and deluded. To me, that's just as judgemental as the people who criticise your decision.
Posted by: Alex | Jul 6, 2007 9:28:14 AM
"I wanted a family, not a baby"
Do you not consider women without husbands families? I have two children. I haven't had a husband in over eight years. We ARE a family.
We do not need a man in our lives to make it so.
Posted by: butterfliesonpins | Jul 6, 2007 10:14:48 AM
At the beginning of your blog I was disappointed bc I thought you were defending yourself. There is absolutely no reason for you to have to justify yourself to people who do not know you and have not lived in your life. I made the same decision you did and I have not regretted it once. It was my decision to make and on one elses. Passing judgement is not attractive anyways.
However, as I kept reading I realized it wasn't about you. It's about the women out there who need faith and support because they have lost theirs somewhere along the way.
Thank you for sharing your confidence and strength.
Posted by: Teresa | Jul 6, 2007 10:20:34 AM
Assume all you want but there was nothing slick or nasty in my comment. We're not talking about a situation where somebody gets "knocked up" and decides to have an abortion because they don't want to have a baby. I was asking about this particular situation where Stephanie was happy about a pregnancy and looking forward to it - writing poetry about it etc. (okay, maybe it was just one card) and later decided to terminate the pregnancy due to her husband's infidelity. I think it's a particularly unique situation. I have no agenda. I didn't suggest that Stephanie "sacrificed a child for her own life". I didn't even say I wouldn't do the same thing in her situation. Even worse, part of me would likely want to hurt my cheating husband by aborting his "child". But I think part of me may see it as an "us against him" situation. Regardless, I've never had to make that choice, so I have no idea. Just wanted to hear her thoughts on a pregnancy which was welcome one day and clearly a burden the next. Stephanie seemed to understand my comment. And her response was much more interesting than telling me to "go to hell". The only reason I said it was difficult to identify with is because I've only ever experienced pregnancies that I wanted. When you want to get pregnant and manage to become so, it's been my experience that you start to identify with the "being" whatever it is, at an early stage. If anything, I imagine that it made Stephanie's decision to terminate more difficult and I asked for her thoughts. Put the attack dogs away people. Stephanie is a big girl and her reading comprehension is clearly way better than some that's represented a couple of these comments.
Posted by: LB | Jul 6, 2007 10:33:16 AM
If Someone Shows You Who They Are... Believe Them.
-Maya Angelou
Best advice I've EVER heard.
Posted by: Raine | Jul 6, 2007 10:39:42 AM
My favorite line was "doing anything you wouldn't feel comfortable doing in front of your partner, but doing it anyway, is cheating". I completely agree.
I think others may have asked you this question already, so please forgive the redundancy, but did you ever hear from the Wasband or Rome after your book was published? Is the Wasband remarried? What is he doing now??
Posted by: Jules | Jul 6, 2007 10:40:40 AM
1. this is SKs blog, so whatever she says (good, bad, indifferent, right, wrong, etc., is for her and her alone to express...i just don't get why readers can't accept that and turn it into a political statment, some agenda that they need to beat down or pump up....).
2. as for LBs comments, i think he/she was making a legit inquiry, as opposed to making any judgment call(s). pro-life, pro-choice, whatever...the point is to keep the coversation going, no? i've never had an abortion, but it serioulsy crossed my mind when i found out i was pregnant. i'm glad i didn't now, but THEN it would have been the right choice for me. and i would have had to live with my decision.
3. i find it sad and odd how many posters feel the need to bash on Jenny as per her post. Give her a break...she is young, and is learning...crips. some of you people act sooooo holier than thou. get OVER yourselves. NOT one damn one of us can say we've done it all right and never made a mistake.
4. my opionion is that the lack of the father, or the mother, or whatever...all that stuff doesn't make a "family"..."family" like "life" is defined by those who live it/in it. I basically grew up without my father around, but my "family" consisted of those ppl who took care of me/loved me/put up with me.
Posted by: Yaba | Jul 6, 2007 10:52:52 AM
Thank you.....I so needed to hear this right now.....
Posted by: Ellen | Jul 6, 2007 11:01:43 AM
If Someone Shows You Who They Are... Believe Them.
-Maya Angelou
Stephanie, you use this quote in your book, and I honestly thought you came up with it on your own. You should have attributed it.
FROM STEPHANIE: Actually, in the book I say this to a guy. It's dialog. It's what I actually said to him.
"You see I believe people when they tell me who they are. Clearly, you know you, way better than I ever could, so I'm going to take your word for it. And, some boy who doesn't know a great thing when he sees it isn't the guy for me. I hate to use the 'I want a man not a boy' line, but that's me telling you who I am."
Posted by: Eva | Jul 6, 2007 12:11:35 PM
I went through something similar, my former husband was an alcoholic. I told him at the start of our relationship that I would not be part of a relationship that included alcohol and he swore up and down that the problem was behind him. We mapped out what we would do if our relationship got into trouble (therapy, etc.) and on it went.
Well, he lied. The depths of his lying and deceiving didn't become clear to me until much later. He hid his drinking, he hid the credit card bills, he had an excuse for everything (slurring on the phone during a business trip, he was just tired). I bought it all because I didn't want to believe I had made such a mistake.
Then he began to get emotionally abusive, then he started to be mean to my daughter. Then he grabbed me one night and wouldn't let me go. I decided to leave.
I called in sick to work one day and one of my dear friends came over and we loaded everything we could into my van and her truck and moved me and my daughter out. I lost my house, financial security (he ran up a ton of debt I didn't know about) some friends (he has a great public persona, private very different) but I regained my sanity and myself! I do not regret the decision for a moment. I still am bitter about the lying and the deception. Time will heal it. Because of this, I got into therapy and am a much stronger, healthier person now. Best example I could set for my daughter.
FROM STEPHANIE: Although I've been through really hard things, the first bit of me wants to say, "I can't even imagine how you did it. How strong and brave, and triumphant. I mean the courage that takes, wow. All the doubt and wondering, worrying if you'll regret, and you did it anyway." And I applaud you, realizing, I did it too. Not the exact same thing, of course, but facing the same fears. Stepping up and doing what scared the shit out of us... so I applaud me too. I think it makes you grow in such a profound way. And I love the role you're setting for your daughter. So, so much.
Posted by: mcatgirl | Jul 6, 2007 12:12:40 PM
LB, I agree with you. And Stephanie would never have been able to lead the type of single life she wanted as a divorced single mother in her mind, I am sure.
Posted by: Beth | Jul 6, 2007 12:33:21 PM
LB, perhaps you're right and "go to hell" is a bit harsh. I just don't see the point in implying she made the baby disposable for herself. Then again, I dont really think of them as babies at that stage. Just little tadpoles with eyeholes and flippers, not even able to move yet. When I was struggling with my decision I educated myself, looked up info, pics, etc...My mom thought I was crazy doing this. "Why torture yourself?"
But I cant imagine going through it without being educated as to what Im doing to my body.
Posted by: Julie | Jul 6, 2007 2:44:59 PM
wow, stephanie...obviously a much heated topic for blog-dom! i completely agree that you have to be in that situation to be able to say what you should do. you can sympathize and empathize and theorize all you want but you don't really know until you, yourself are faced with your very own hell. it takes an amazing amount of strength to leave and make those hard decisions. i don't think i really understood the transformation my life would take until a couple of years had passed and i could see how much i had changed and grown. my decision was obviously the best for me. but here's where i get confused...it is so frustrating for me to still think about him and wonder if i made the right decision? is there something else i could've done differently? i've been realizing that i actually miss him. so i tell myself i've been misssing the good about him. i know we divorced for very right reasons. i made a smart choice and i'm better for it. thinking about him and missing him confuses my right decision, though. and i hate that feeling.
FROM STEPHANIE: I would say that the miss you feel from time to time might mean, at least in part, that you actually loved him. Shocker there, right? I mean you were married! So it's a good sign, really, it means it was very real to you, and it's normal to miss. It might also mean you miss the idea of him, and as such hold onto the good rosy details instead of the wretched ones which led to your divorce in the first place.
I think the worst in when they slip into your dreams, where you have no control over your thoughts. You can't will them away; they're just there. Which might mean you're still processing things.
Posted by: christina | Jul 6, 2007 4:12:15 PM
Stephanie,
Great post. Well written and a great message. As with another reader, I generally enjoy your writing but do not always agree with you. Here, I absolutely do.
Posted by: Mara | Jul 6, 2007 4:16:52 PM
Christina, your comment really hit home with me. I ended a seven-year relationship in 2005, not because I fully wanted to but because there was simply no way I could let myself stay. Even though things soured so at the end and even though it was the right decision, I still miss him. Very much. It hasn't healed. My heart is still as broken as it was the day I walked away. It's shameful for me to admit this and I've never acknowledged it. I hate the feeling, too, and I tell myself the same thing you tell yourself: I only miss the good, the unhealthy far outweighed the healthy. That's all true, and as much as I care for him I could never, ever take him back. But I hate that I miss him.
I don't know if you (or anyone) struggle with this too, but I really struggle with forgiving myself. I can't help but think, "What kind of person stays with a man who treats her like shit for SEVEN YEARS OF HER LIFE?" I can tell other women that it's okay, it wasn't your fault, look how strong you are that you walked away, good for you. And I believe it when I tell them. But I can't internalize it for myself.
Sorry for the vent. Today's his birthday. It's a bit tough. I kind of hope he gets shitfaced and ends up slumped in a public restroom stall. (evil chuckle)
Posted by: Lisa | Jul 6, 2007 4:55:06 PM
I read this post last night and cried. I am currently the other woman, or was, really, until he decided to leave this afternoon to go back to Brooklyn for the weekend to see his girlfriend. We're at a summer-long program outside the city, and have been friends for awhile now. I knew about his girlfriend, and yet I let myself do this anyway. He has felt so guilty that he couldn't really sleep or study, so that's why he's heading out to see her. He has told me over and over how much he loves her, but he won't tell her what he did. I think that it is so important to believe a man when he shows himself to you, as you said, but what if he refuses to show you? This girl thinks all is well and fine, and now I have to go along with the damn ruse. When he gets back here on Sunday night, I'll have to listen to how amazing it all was, but she will be, no doubt, still in the dark. Anyway, I really appreciated this post. Those of us on the other side of the relationship would do well to get the hell out of that toxic wastedump just as fast. And as a 29-year-old, I too want a man, not a boy, but I just keep settling for this crap. Thanks for your post, Stephanie.
Posted by: TEA | Jul 6, 2007 4:55:18 PM
Stephanie,
You are a brave woman, for many reasons. One of them being the way you so gracefully handle this vicious environment that is your blog comments. What a soap opera!
Posted by: stef with an f | Jul 6, 2007 5:52:43 PM
nice post. i like the lying in bed/delaying getting up for work analogy. good one.
I WISH YOU'D POST ABOUT WHAT THE WASBAND IS DOING NOW???? super curious about that.
or could you get into trouble for that?
Posted by: curious | Jul 6, 2007 7:27:38 PM
Does it ever catch up to them? Is there ever any indication of remorse? An apology years later? Any evidence of real regret, anywhere, any time? Is that too much to hope for? That they will eventually run smack into the realization that they are frauds and liars, with no souls to speak of? Or do they just go on their merry way, littering their lives with broken women, constantly replacing one with another (or several)?
FROM STEPHANIE: I wish it did work that way, but I don't think it does. It happens in stories, in movies, in a make-believe world. Karma should work, ya know. And maybe it does, maybe we never get to see it. I believe people can rationalize nearly anything, and a lot of people do pretty horrible things without feelings of remorse. They talk themselves into an "it was justified" place so they can continue to function.
Posted by: tig | Jul 6, 2007 7:36:22 PM
I've never commented before, but I've been thinking about this post since early this afternoon when I read it, and felt I had to say: thank you. You know how you can hear something 10,000 times, and it's only time 10,001 that makes any difference? Well, here it is. He's engaged now, and not to me, and I was the other the whole time, but the idea is the same; his lies never stop, to me, to her, to himself. I used to say, "he's in therapy, he doesn't really love her, etc." but it's true, the therapy's just to alleviate the guilt, not to really heal and grow. I'll go on too long, but what I mean is, the great (half Austin, half NYC!) guy I've got now reminds me what real men can be, and the piece you posted today reminds me (again) how lucky I am to be away from my last toxic relationship. Thanks.
Posted by: LO | Jul 6, 2007 11:15:33 PM
sigh....reading this post and a lot of the comments have hit home. i was with my high school sweetheart for 6 years, were broken up for 5 and then got "back together" so to speak, last year. since he lives in another state, we were not officially dating/exclusive, but we were excited that we still had feelings after all that time and we agreed to see where it went. so, i find out about 8 months into it that even though we promised that we would tell each other if we went out with other people, he had not been honest with me about a girl he had gone out with a few times. when i confronted him, he said he didnt tell me because he knew i would be upset and there was no right way to tell me. so i cut things off with him but we haven't spoken in exactly one year. i was (still am) extremely hurt by his actions, especially since we had been through so much together and even remained friends for the 5 years we were broken up.
here's my question.....how do you know if its just a one time thing and if you can forgive them, why not give them another chance? i am reading all these posts and i give stephanie and everyone so much credit for being strong and leaving....but how do you know when you should forgive and when do you become an asshole for staying?
Posted by: jessy | Jul 6, 2007 11:21:34 PM
one more thing.....lisa, i totally feel you. i just recently in the past couple of months started really missing him and not really thinking about the shitty stuff. i'm confused as to what that means to me....does it mean that i have or am on my way to forgiving him? or does it mean that i'm thinking about and missing the good times and not thinking about what he did to me?
and don't sell yourself short, lisa. you probably did the right thing. you were in a long relationship, give yourself time to heal. charlotte from "sex and the city" said that the amount of time it takes for you to get over an ex is half the amout of time you were together!! i don't know howo much i believe that but i thought it was funny.
Posted by: jessy | Jul 6, 2007 11:26:43 PM
lisa whatever kind of woman stays with a man who treats her like shit (if there is a "kind") you aren't it - you left. even if you're having trouble internalizing that you are a good person, and strong for leaving, keep on telling yourself-one day it'll take root.
Posted by: uberswell | Jul 7, 2007 2:08:57 AM
I am absolutely not judging you on the choices you made many years ago. However, you do not need a man, woman & child to “make a family."
There are many types of "families." One of the best examples of a different "family" that I know are my friends (gay male couple) that are raising bi-racial, adopted twins. Talk about a challenge! They have made their "family." The choice you made was to not be connected to this former husband for the rest of your life. To accomplish that, you ended the pregnancy - simple as that.
A cousin of mine got pregnant by her then boyfriend at age 18. He choose not to be part of his son's life. She decided to give birth & raise the child. Though it has not always been easy for her, she made a "family." Her son just graduated from high school and will be entering college this fall on a full scholarship.
IMHO, you did choose your path - certainly your decision, but perhaps the easier decision.
And yes, I know you will probably not post this.
Posted by: Wave | Jul 7, 2007 2:54:22 AM
you have no idea how much i needed this post. few weeks ago i saw an incoming message in my boyfriend's phone from an androgynous name. when asked, he said that Taylor was a male friend and "you can call him right now if you want". ever since, things have not been adding up and i've been chalking it up to my own suspicious insecurities while leaving him on a pedestal. no more. i've caught him in too many lies and forgiven him on the grounds that it's my fault because I have trust issues.
thank you for this post. thank you thank you thank you!
Posted by: erin | Jul 7, 2007 8:32:39 AM
Wave,
Now it is time for you to become an adult. Never say "Simple as that" because it simply isn't true and makes you look foolish. Making the decision to not be a single under 30 mom when your entire life has just been turned upside down and your lifelong desire was to have a family NOT just have a child is not simple as that she didn't want any connection to him. And writing "I know you won't post this"? Are you 12?
Posted by: Lana | Jul 7, 2007 8:47:22 AM
I was at Barnes N Noble last night and I almost purchased your paperback. But responsibly, I stopped myself. I bought your hardcover back when it came out and for christmas, I gave it to my cousin who really needed it.
Add insult to injury, she's dating a man who doesn't let her wear a bikini because she has rolls so to speak. He thinks it's gross - I'll just mention for the record that he's mighty big himself too. She doesn't have her immigration papers in order, and that was her dream, to have them. But she's sacrificed so much of herself for this dream, that I don't think its worth it. I guess that's when you know you should leave - when you aren't being true to yourself, your expectations, and your dreams. I'll throw this out there too- he's a registered sex offendor in CT. And my cousin is the sweetest girl in the world.
I gave her your book to show her that it can be done. That you can want something so much, realize its not worth it, and back out, no matter how hard it is. I should have known when her boyfriend/husband criticized you as an author, or "bluntly honest" girl that she was never going to read it. I'm planning to steal it next time I visit her!
Posted by: Carolina | Jul 7, 2007 12:07:15 PM
No, Lana. I am not twelve.
I have tried posting comments here previously & I think only one time time did my post show up. So, I stopped trying to post. I continued to read this blog because Stephanie is a very interesting writer. Only after reading this recent entry did I try to post again, as I know many people in non-traditional families.
Again, I absolutely think Stephanie made the right decision for herself. Not being a writer, perhaps I do not express myself the best through the written word. The point I was attempting to express is that there are many different types of family structures - you do not need to be in a traditional family with a father and mother to be considered a family. That was it - no harm was meant.
Posted by: Wave | Jul 7, 2007 12:32:22 PM
wow, stephanie. thanks for your thoughts on my post. you kind of just gave me permission to miss him...and that its okay. i don't know why its so hard for me to do that for myself. i think we get so caught up in the hate and disappointment, we forget there were good things. i mean there obviously must have been b/c i don't think anyone marries the outright asshole! (at least i hope not). i agree with you about the dreams. its been awhile since i've dreamed about him but in it, we were together and it felt so real. talk about needing a few minutes after waking up!
lisa...we are strong women b/c we eventually choose ourself. we don't choose a marriage or a relationship or the ideal life we thought we could have with that person...we choose us! we choose to love ourself more than anything else...and that is hard! that is really hard for me to wrap my head around and i've just recently done so. it might take certain events to occur. it might take a long time. but when we're not happy, there comes that moment you decide to love yourself more. and to tell you the truth, i'm pretty jubilant with glee (as in i want to scream it from the top of a mtn!) that i chose to love me more! that takes strength and courage and a faith in yourself that sometimes i don't think we know we have! it doesn't matter how long it takes us to arrive to that moment. its that we arrived. and that we're strong enough to follow through :) and, oh by the way...i hate the b-day! his first after we divorced i called him to wish him a happy day and ended up finding out he was living with someone already. needless to say i didn't call him this year. don't call. ;)
Posted by: christina | Jul 7, 2007 5:30:42 PM
"i'd just like to say that most people bring children into this world to increase the quality of their life...to make it more enjoyable...more joyful...and if having a child is not going to accomplish that than you're defeating the purpose...i.e resenting a child, down syndrome etc
facts change and when they do you adjust your course accordingly."
I'm completely pro-choice and I felt that LB was being completely disingenuous in her first post. She said she was pro-choice but was hitting all the anti-choice talking points. But this comment is also absurd. The assumption that if a child has Down's Syndrome, they could not possibly bring joy to you. Are you kidding? Particularly since, unfortunately, lots of things can happen after a child is born.
That is life. It's funny that way.
FROM STEPHANIE: Trish, I corrected your mistake. And I don't think anyone was implying a child with down syndrome couldn't bring joy into anyone's lives. We all know joy can come from unexpected places and people, and often the most challenging situations also bring with them joy and growth. That doesn't mean we cannot make our own choices of our own free will, and decide what we believe is best for us.
Posted by: Trish | Jul 7, 2007 8:00:08 PM
Stephanie, what do you think of the situations Sarah described? Where you keep things from your partner not because they are things you want to keep secret, and not because they are things you wouldn't do normally, but because of their jealousy?
My boyfriend of three years bristles at the mention of a male name. He makes me feel guilty for seeing male friends I've known since school, says things like "How do I know what you're doing when I'm not there?". So it's gotten to the point where I just don't mention them, and it makes me sad I can't recount my funny stories with him because of the way he will react.
He makes comments about the things I wear, if he thinks they will attract male attention. He doesn't trust me. I've never cheated, I've never given him any reason not to trust me. But I do omit certain things, because of the guilt he makes me feel, and the subsequent confusion I feel at feeling guilty in the first place.
I may have just taught myself a few things about my relationship by describing it in this comment, but I would be interested to know - do you consider someone in my situation deceitful?
Posted by: Lea | Jul 7, 2007 8:52:21 PM
I really, really love that people criticize SK for having an abortion. Glass houses, much?
I want to applaud Stephanie for being open and honest about her CHOICE (see that word people? Choice? Learn it) to terminate her pregnancy. So many women hide their decisions from the world for fear of judgment and criticism. To say that Stephanie "punished" a "child" for her bad marriage is crap. Cell cluster = not a child yet. Sorry.
Women have the final say on their own bodies and lives. Just because your beliefs may dictate what your individual choice would be doesn't make it the truth. That makes it YOUR truth. One size does not fit all.
Posted by: KB | Jul 7, 2007 10:00:12 PM
Lea, here's how I feel about hiding things from your partner because of their jealousy...don't do that. It is dishonest to lie by omission, to avoid the whole truth because it helps to avoid an argument.
Soon you'll be living on assumptions. Assuming it will bother him, so you won't bring it up. And one day, he'll discover that you didn't bring it up, even if harmless, and he'll wonder what else you keep from him, thus making him even more suspicious and insecure... and it perpetuates the cycle.
I'm a jealous person. Insecure and jealous... or I have been, can be, etc. And I have always found that I can at least deal or mostly deal when my partner is at least being straight up with me. At least that way I know what's going on, am not concocting stories in my head, imagining things to be worse than they are. I don't always like what I hear, but I can at least live with it because I know what it is. It's not some ominous thing. So it actually helps when people are honest, even if it's not something I want to hear.
I say, let them deal with their jealousy, and if you love them, you'll understand it and work with them on realizing that it stems from insecurity. No one is perfect, so deciding if you can live with a jealous partner is what you need to ask of yourself. And you should NOT change your behavior or how you communicate it, but you should be open and honest and compromise, working in understanding your partner's feelings.
Posted by: StephanieKlein | Jul 8, 2007 1:13:38 AM
You post and the comments to it have had me on an emotional rollercoaster. Not least because I just read a review of "Lust in Translation" too, basically charting how infidelity is viewed so differently in different cultures. Food for thought, indeed... it also mentions the "rationalizing" i.e. "It's ok that I cheat because my wife doesn't understand me..."
Part of me agrees with everything you said - honesty really is paramount in a healthy relationship - but so many people are living in relationships that are not healthy, for various reasons. Mistakes we are yet to learn from, or something... because we are still growing, as people, and still dealing with our own issues?
Lea's comment rang a bell. My answer to her would be different from yours (but of course, we are both answering based on our own lives). The way I see it, there is jealousy and there is jealousy. You, SK, have been very open about the fact that you are jealous - and to an extent, I am sure most people are. But I recognise the kind of jealously Lea is describing.
7 years into exactly that kind of relationship, I can tell you that I have come to realize I have been erased in this relationship. Because I dress how he sees fit, and no - I never feel pretty (which, I think, is exactly the way he wants it). I have cut down on socializing because I can't be doing with the hassle. I am not myself anymore, around him, call it deceitful if you like, but it has also made me very unhappy. And with one life to live, this is about to change. As soon as I find the courage. All I am saying is, sometimes deceitful behaviour is a symptom of something else rather than the cause of problems in itself.
FROM STEPHANIE: "sometimes deceitful behaviour is a symptom of something else" is justifying it, even if you're working on getting out. It's never okay (unless you're planning a surprise party). If you don't like the situation you've found yourself in, you speak up, stand up for yourself, and confront it or leave it. And you should be proud of yourself whenever this happens. Sometimes it takes extraordinary measures to light a fire under your ass. I would know. Been there.
One shouldn't however make excuses to herself, justifying the lies. And then there's the "cause of the problems" which absolutely can be the jealousy, but who cares what the cause... it's about creating a result you can live with, happily live with. As you.
Posted by: Me Too | Jul 8, 2007 1:21:59 PM
Stephanie:
I am a long time reader, but have never posted. I am dealing with jealousy issues too (my own). I just found out that for my boyfriend's best friend's birthday they will be going to a strip bar. I just can't stand this. I know you have said before you get jealous too... how do you deal with this? Has Phil ever gone a strip bar? I am a very insecure person. I used to be thin - 5 ft and 90 lbs. Now not so much. I have gained weight since my boyfriend and I have started dating (so has he) and I don't feel sexy and attractive all the time. He assures me he only wants to be with me and that he does find me attractive... but I just can't get it through my head sometimes. I don't know what to do.
FROM STEPHANIE: I don't know what to tell you and strongly suggest you discuss this with a therapist. I know for my own situation, it will never be appropriate for my man to go to a strip club. I don't care who wants to call it entertainment. A woman heaving her bare breasts in his face is inappropriate and disrespectful to me. And the, "I'll go but promise not to get a lap dance" shit doesn't fly either. I don't care what convention says. The idea of him going there wounds me deeply. Willingly walking into an overtly sexual atmosphere, despite the fact that it's all fake and a ruse and men are exploited, blah blah, I will never be okay with it. I just won't. Most of my friends have no problem with this. I do. I always will. I don't support such archaic customs and won't be supportive of them. Phil and I have a deal, and he's respectful of my feelings. He knows and has known since before we were married that it's just a deal breaker for me. It is just one of those lines that cannot be crossed in our relationship. Many men can't stand places like that and get annoyed when a bachelor party is set there because it means spending obscene amounts of money... but that's beside the point. Enjoy it or not, I'd be ill knowing he were there. Period. And no amount of time in the gym would make me more accepting of any of it.
Posted by: Dawn | Jul 9, 2007 5:13:23 PM
dawn-
my boyfriend goes to strip clubs, i go to strip clubs with my friends. there is no need to be jealous because its entertainment. if you feel bad about yourself, go out for a run, eat better or buy some sexy lingerie. don't let your own depression get in the way. its not your boyfriends fault.
good luck!
Posted by: kylie | Jul 9, 2007 5:43:07 PM
Stephanie, I swear that we married the same first husband. I tried to convince myself otherwise. I even believed him when he blatantly lied to me. I'm STILL fighting the need to talk to him and it's been 7 months since we seperated. Thanks for reassuring me that I did the right thing!
Christy
Posted by: Christy | Jul 9, 2007 9:27:33 PM
Dawn,
Have you told your boyfriend that you'd rather he not go to the strip club? You may not feel very secure right now, but you're well within your rights to ask this of him.
For the record, it would really bother me too. I don't consider it entertainment; if my significant other and I are in a monogamous sexual relationship, then what's the point of his spending time (and money) in an overtly sexual environment getting turned on by other women? It inches way too close to cheating for me. Call it archaic, but that's my standard.
If you're finding yourself stuck in a personal rut (which is what it sounds like, based on your words), I think Stephanie's suggestion to seek a therapist is a great one. I've definitely been there myself, and I feel for you. Seeking some professional guidance doesn't mean you're crazy, and it will be a great help to you in figuring out where you are, how you got there, and where to proceed henceforth. And really, what could be so bad about paying someone to spend an hour really listening to you? :)
Good luck, Dawn.
Posted by: Lisa | Jul 10, 2007 12:25:50 AM
My sister is going through a messy divorce, and one of the things she mentions the most is what a failure she feels like. I sent her your post and told her that it is actually courage, not failure, that she should feel. Her husband deceived her many times by checking her e-mail behind her back and showing it to his friends. She printed out this post and is carrying it around in her wallet to remind herself how brave she is not to stay in that situation. Thank you.
Posted by: Melissa | Jul 10, 2007 10:50:17 AM
Stephanie and Lisa,
Thanks for the replies. I appreciate your input. I think that both of you put into words exactly what I feel. Strip clubs are out of the question. I talked to my boyfriend. He told me he wasn’t even going to go (he decided this before I said anything). I asked him why and he told me it wasn’t his type of thing. He had no desire to go. That made me feel better. Later I asked him if he understood why I didn’t want him to go. He said he did. He said that he didn’t want to go and he really thought he wouldn’t have fun at one. I do believe him on this, as he doesn’t even look at porn. We even joked about having better things to spend his ones on. J
Stephanie, I completely agree. I don’t believe that any amount of gym or dieting would change my feelings about this. In fact when I was thinner (and felt more attractive) I was still against strip clubs. My not wanting him to go is more than my insecurity. I don’t believe that strip clubs are moral and that when in a relationship any outside sexual contact is cheating (whether for entertainment or not).
Unfortunately I don’t know if I can afford a therapist. I have considered it before (as I think I have anxiety attacks). I am a college student and have absolutely no money. But I will look into the university’s medical programs and see if they offer any therapy sessions.
To Kylie,
Yes, it may not be my boyfriend’s fault, but we are in this relationship together. If I am not happy with something then we both need to work on it (I think). I have contacted a Tan and Tone establishment and set up an appointment to start working out. In all actuality I am not really overweight… I just don’t feel as attractive as I used to. I think if I do start working out I will start to feel better about myself.
Again Stephanie and Lisa, Thank you.
I think I may have over reacted about the whole situation or perhaps not. I know I should have talked about it with my boyfriend at first. Surprisingly he understood everything. But again thank you for the input and understanding. It does help to know that someone beautiful and successful (as you are Stephanie) knows how I feel.
Sorry for such a long post...
Posted by: Dawn | Jul 10, 2007 6:23:56 PM
You have struck a cord. I am struggling with a bad marriage. I want to leave, but am afraid. Thank you for the insight and support. I can honestly say most people cannot relate to this unless they have been through it themselves.
Posted by: gene | Dec 30, 2007 12:29:38 AM
Ugh. Just reread this and am hating on myself right now. This is all true. I'm sure of it. But I am also lazy. Very, very lazy. Being lazy is no excuse for staying miserable, I know. (ducking head and hiding from my life)
Posted by: Eleanor's Trousers | Mar 27, 2008 1:27:19 PM
I wish I had read this when you posted it. I wish I would have been smarter, but reading this put it all into perspective, that little that I had been holding onto; the grudge, and that little bit of pain. It is so true!! I had no idea what a masicist I was being until I finally said enough was enough. You are such a wise woman! Don't let anyone tell you that you are a fool for leaving, though every situation is different, only a fool would stay in a situation that is slowly killing them one day at a time.
Posted by: SimplyLena | Jun 7, 2008 10:38:38 PM
So I went back after I commented in March. And last weekend I called off the wedding because he did it. Again. And this post is exactly what I should have believed then. And is so true. A liar is a liar is a liar. And if I had left then, at least I'd still have had my dignity. Now all I've got is me. And that's going to be ok. Some day.
Posted by: Eleanor's Trousers | Jun 24, 2008 10:28:35 PM
Thank you. I know this is an old post, but I needed very much to hear it. You are 100% right.
Posted by: Karen | Jul 23, 2008 9:02:19 PM


